Dave Lindorff, Reporter
Award-winning
investigative reporter Dave Lindorff has been working as a journalist for 30 years. A
regular columnist for CounterPunch (www.counterpunch.org), he also writes frequently for
In These Times (www.InTheseTimes.org) and Salon magazine (www.salon.com), as well as for
Businessweek, the Nation and Treasury&Risk Management Magazine. In the late 1970s, he
ran the Daily News bureau covering Los Angeles County government, and in the mid-'90s,
spent several years as a correspondent in Hong Kong and China for Businessweek. Over the
years he has written for such publications as Rolling Stone, Mother Jones, Village Voice,
Forbes, The London Observer and the Australian National Times. He is the author of three
books--This
Can't Be Happening! (Common Courage Press, 2004), Marketplace Medicine: The Rise of
the For Profit Hospital Chains (Bantam, 1992), an investigative report on the for-profit
hospital industry, and Killing Time: An Investigation into the Death Row Case of Mumia
Abu-Jamal (Common Courage Press, 2003), the only independent examination of this important
capital case. A two-time Fulbright Scholar (Shanghai, China and Kaohsiung, Taiwan), he is
a 1975 graduate of the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism, and received a
B.A. in Chinese in 1972 from Wesleyan University. In October 2004, he was awareded a
coveted "Most Censored Story of 2003" award by Project Censored (for his Oct.
16, 2003 story in Salon about the Pentagon's quiet efforts to gear up the machinery for a
return to the draft). A founding member of the National Writers Union, and a member of the
steering committee of the NWU Philadelphia local, for the past seven years, he has lived
with his family just outside Philadelphia.
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RIP POST: Why did you write
the columns, and the book, Dave? Big bucks? Trying to get on "Oprah" and
"Larry King?" Trying to be a player? Huh? Can we expect a denunciation from
Scott McClellan soon?
LINDORFF: Ive been struggling along as a freelance writer for over 25 years, and I
thought it was finally time to cash in, so I wrote a book attacking little Bush, figuring
that this is where the money is! Unfortunately, it hasnt worked out that way.
No, actually, this book is an outgrowth of a series of columns and investigative
articles Ive been writing since the 9/11 attacks. Last January I was talking with
the publisher of my last book, and somewhere along the way in the conversation, one of us
came up with the idea of putting some of that work together into a book. There are
just so many jaw-dropping things that have been done in the last few yearsso many
idiotic things, so many laughable things, and so many tragic and scary things, that it
just cried out to be put together in one place.
RIP POST: I understand that some of your columns have elicited death threats. Why take
the risk of expressing your feelings about the direction of the country?
LINDORFF: Well, death threats are a badge of honor in this business. These came in
response to a piece I just wrote headlined Our heroic baby killers in Iraq. It
was really about how the policy of the Bush administration and the Pentagon, to keep U.S.
casualties down to a politically acceptable level requires the heavy and indiscriminate
use of high explosivesblockbuster bombs and tank shells mostly, plus helicopter
gunshipsand thus high civilian casualties. The fact that we are killing two times as
many civilians as we are killing enemy fighters means that the collateral
damage should refer to the enemy fighters, not the civilians. This is a war crime,
and the people who are implementing that policy can hardly be called heroes. Well, if the
jerks who claim to be soldiers who fired off the death threat e-mails to me had bothered
to read what I wrote, I wasnt condemning the troops or pilots, for whom I feel a
great deal of sorrow and compassion. I was condemning the armchair generals and
chicken-hawk politicians who put them in the position of having to kill women and
children. At least its nice to know that alleged soldiers are reading my
columns.
RIP POST: There have been many books and film documentaries that are spectacularly
critical of this administration---an unprecedented number, I'll bet. How does your book
differ?
LINDORFF: I think my book differs in not just going after the Bush crew. Kerry, after all,
voted for this messthe war and the so-called Patriot Actas did most Democratic
elected officials.
RIP POST: You broke several
big stories that were picked up by the media in the past couple of years, including the
possibility of bringing back the draft, and the fact that Homeland Security's phone number
for reporting suspected terrorists actually rang up "America's Most Wanted."
Tell me how you broke these, ahead of every newspaper and news network in the world?
LINDORFF: Interestingly, I was tipped off to both stories by one of the worlds
great unheralded newsmen, Bernie Beck. Beck produces surplus value for the San Francisco
Chronicle. As I understand it, in his job he runs across great stories all the time, which
his publication then ignores or shows no interest in. He then notifies people like me and
I go, Holy Shit! Thats a story! Then I investigate. I think in the
case of Operation TIPS, Beck sent me an email noting that the Justice Dept. was asking on
its website for volunteers for a citizen spy program that Attorney General Ashcroft hoped
would eventually have 20 million citizen spies spying on their neighbors and reporting
them to authorities. My response was to go on line and sign up. I waited a few weeks,
hoping to get a decoder ring and a pamphlet telling me how to conduct my spying operation.
When nothing came but a letter thanking me for joining and asking me for the names of
other people who might want to sign up, I called the Justice Department. I said I was a
citizen volunteer and wondered where I should call to report on the suspicious neighbors I
had already spotted. They told me that theyd set up this 800-number as a hotline. So
I called it. I was expecting to get some hard-nosed FBI agent, whom I would then confront
as a journalist, asking how he or she was going to evaluate my accusations. Instead,
though, I got a perky woman on the line who said, cheerfully, Americas Most
Wanted I was in shock. The Justice Dept. was turning its citizen spy network
over to Fox-TV! I ran this shocking story of the ultimate in
privatizationhomeland securityin Salon magazine. It got picked up by the CBS
Evening News, Congress flipped out, and killed the program. The thing that struck me was
that CBS should have done this story itself, but it was scared to. Instead, they waited
months until some wacky Internet journalist did it, and then they reported on
my reporting on the story. That was safer.
The draft story was similar. Beck sent me a note saying that the Pentagon was recruiting
lots of people to fill up the draft boards, local and regional, which had been languishing
and disfunctional after years of being ignored. I looked into it, called some draft board
members and the Selective Service, and got confirmation that they were gearing up to be
able to kick start a new draft. It was an explosive story. The government continues to
deny that they are about to reinstate the draft, but with troops stretched to the
limit, and recruiting and re-enllistments collapsing, they wont have any
alternative, and the work theyre doing to resurrect the draftboard apparatus proves
that it is on the road.
RIP POST: One of your stories is being honored as one of the "Top 25 Censored
Stories" of the past year or so, correct? What was the story, how was it censored?
LINDORFF: This is the draft story, which I ran in versions in Salon and Counterpunch and
which is also featured in my book. I think Project Censoreds notion is that this and
many of the other winning stories are important issues that were completely ignored or
covered up by the corporate media, and that thus had to be broken by the alternative
media, as mine was (Salon is an internet magazine).
RIP POST: You were the first person to (very clinically) draw comparisons between
pre-war Nazi Germany and the Bush administration policies (and the articles are in your
book.) You took tremendous flack for this. It's well beyond the imagination of most people
how such a thing can be possible. As a friend of mine said about potential
"Patriot" Act abuses, "nothing has happened yet!" Can you summarize
the comparison? Didn't O'Reilly take a swipe at you?
LINDORFF: I think I caught flack from all over the right-wing mediathe Wall Street
Journal editorial page, National Review, Rush Limbaugh, OReilly. You have to figure
if they got this upset about a guy writing on a site like Counterpunch, I must have really
hit a nerve. Anyhow, what I did was to say not that Bush is Hitler or that
the Republicans are Nazis, but that the Bush team had used 9/11, and later the War in
Iraq, the way Hitler and Goebbels used the Reichstag Firethe burning of the German
parliament buildingand the invasion of Poland. In the first case, the tower attacks
and the Reichstag Fire, it was taking a national disaster and using it to sow fear, as
well as to point to certain alien groupsCommies and Jews in one case, aye-rabs
in the second, to create a nation of quivering wusses ready to surrender their freedoms
and political beliefs in hopes of protection. Then there was the creation of what was
supposed to be a dandy little war to burnish the patriotic image of the maximum leader.
Unfortunately, in both Hitlers and Bushs case, the little war turned out to be
a big war that didnt go as well as planned.
RIP POST: I understand you did not seek publication, but that it sought you. Explain?
LINDORFF: Well, thats not exactly right. The articles that the book is based
upon were things that I proposed to Salon magazine, or submitted to Counterpunch magazine.
The book, Im really not sure about. Its not clear to me whether it was my idea
or Common Courage Press publisher Greg Bates idea. It may have emerged like an algae
bloom in the course of a conversation we were having about what I should do next following
my 2003 book Killing Time, which Greg also published.
RIP POST: A reader recently declared that writers like me (and you, I assume) deliberately
try to deceive the public into thinking that "we (the USA) are the bad guys."
Comments?
LINDORFF: Objectively speaking we are the bad guys. We invaded a country that posed
no threat to us, thus establishing a new rule of the jungle in international relations
that we tried to leave behand after World War II. I would add that when you fight a
war in which you kill civilians at twice the rate that you are killing enemy combatants,
the collateral damage is the killing of enemy fighters, not civilians. This is
flat out a war crime and a gross violation of the Geneva Accords, yet it is official U.S.
Military policy, which is to keep U.S. casualties to a politically acceptable minimum by
using high explosive ordinance instead of troops to go after the insurgents.
So yes, we have met the enemy and it is us.
RIP POST: What do you say to people who don't understand that you can "support the
troops" but not the policy? Is there really any getting this point across?
LINDORFF: Well, Ive been trying. I dont know. I guess when the troops
start coming home saying that they dont know why theyre over there, and that
we should be getting out, maybe eventually the majority of Americans, the ones who get
their news through a straw attached to their TV monitor, will eventually pick up the
message.
RIP POST: You were among the first, if not the first, to note the similarities between
the Iraq mess and Vietnam. Do you see any "successful" way out of Iraq, or are
we eventually looking at the equivalents of "Vietnamization," "peace with
honor," and the country turning into a theocratic dictatorship?
LINDORFF: The way out of Iraq is the way we went in. By ship and plane. Now.
There is nothing gained by the U.S. staying the course or helping Iraq
get back on its feet. The U.S. is now the problem in Iraq. Heck, the latest
statistics from the Iraqi puppet governments own Ministry of Health say that the
U.S. Is killing more civilians in Iraq than the rebel insurgency is killing. Whats
that tell you? We are the problem. We are the ones that make Iraq a hell on earth. We are
the ones who make Iraqis afraid to walk the street, start up a business, go to school,
etc., etc. If we leave, things will get better, because they cant get any
worse and will stay like this as long as there are 135-140,000 heavily armed and legally
unchecked guys driving around the country firing off heavy artillery.
RIP POST: How far do you think the Bush administration will go, militarily, to pursue
its policies, if reelected?
LINDORFF: I look for B-52s and the carpet bombing of most of Western Iraq.
RIP POST: I note that the Carlyle Group has taken control over several nuclear weapons
laboratories in Northern California. What do you know about this, and what does it mean?
LINDORFF: The Huns are taking over Rome. The Bush guys want the Cold War back. It was
easier to fight.
RIP POST: You've been an investigative journalist for over 30 years, and you are the
author of several books, including Killing Time: An Investigation into the Death
Penalty Case of Mumia Abu-Jamal. What are your feelings about the state of
"mainstream" journalism today?
LINDORFF: You can only use the word journalism in quotes now in the case of
most of the corporate media. Most of what passes for journalism on television is
entertainment and propaganda. Newspapers are only marginally better, some more than
others. I think that most reporters and editors have ceased to view what they do as
a calling, and see it now as just a career path. Just the idea that you can go to an
undergraduate college and major in journalism is appalling to me. Journalism
at its best should be about having some minimal understanding about a lot of things, about
how the world works, and then going out and looking for issues that need to be explained
to the reading/viewing public so they can gain a better understanding of and control over
their lives. If you just go from highschool to college, and then in college take a
lot of technical classes in how to write a lead, how to edit video tape, etc., you
dont have the educational background, much less life experience, to really do what a
reporter needs to do.
RIP POST: There is still superb reporting being done be courageous correspondents out
there, and I don't mean Judith Miller, but it doesn't seem to have much impact on the
American public, which still doggedly supports the spectacularly failed policies of the
Bush/Cheney administration on Iraq, terrorism, international cooperation, tax relief for
the wealthy, etc. Why?
LINDORFF: Youre right. There is a lot of good work being done, even by mainstream
reporters working in the corporate media. But then the problem is that the public
isnt interested. The public needs to take an active role in reading or watching news
reports. It requires an effort to be inquisitive, to read beyond the jump, to watch a long
investigive report on TV. And people dont want to make that effort. They want to
have it in short sound-bytes and big headlines, with the whole thing laid out for them so
they can know what to think without trying.
RIP POST: Despite Jayson Blair and CBS's document scandal (and others), most journalism
in the country is very solidly backed up, yet Fox manages to pass off wild innuendo and
laughingly right-wing-slanted reporting as "fair and balanced"---and the public
swallows it. Comments?
LINDORFF: Its like I said before. People want journalism that
doesnt require any work on their part. They dont want two points of view in a
story. They want to be told how to think. Fox does that really well. Its propaganda,
and that is what a huge percentage of Americans want, even if they dont know it.
RIP POST: Every day you read facts---not commentary---about scandals in this
administration that stagger the imagination. Cheney receiving a deferred salary from
Halliburton alone should be enough to merit impeachment. Then you have Enron, the energy
policy cover-up, the sheer lying about WMDs in Iraq, and on and on. Nothing Clinton
did---and not very much Nixon did---measures up with the smallest scandals of this
administration. How is it that these FACTS do not wake up the American people to the
reality that this administration is stunningly corrupt and dishonest?
LINDORFF: I have never in my life seen such public cynicism. Thats what has
happened. Weve had so much corruption and so little real genuine public service in
government, and since the Reagan era, such a public acceptance of greed as a virtue, that
I think nobody cares anymore about wrongdoing. Its like the U.S. has adopted the
civic culture of Mexico or China.
RIP POST: Every day you read facts---not commentary---about scandals in this
administration that stagger the imagination. Cheney receiving a deferred salary from
Halliburton alone should be enough to merit impeachment. Then you have Enron, the energy
policy cover-up, the sheer lying about WMDs in Iraq, and on and on. Nothing Clinton
did---and not very much Nixon did---measures up with the smallest scandals of this
administration. How is it that these FACTS do not wake up the American people to the
reality that this administration is stunningly corrupt and dishonest?
LINDORFF: I should add that our educational system, and our media, which hypes
unscientifically all manner of stories, like the medical scare stories, the dirty
bomb threat, etc., dont encourage critical thinking or even scientific
thinking. Astonishing percentages of Americans believe the world was created in seven days
about 6000 years ago, that Eve was made from Adam and that men have one fewer ribs as a
consequence, that the moon landing was staged on a set, that Hussein was behind 9-11, and
that Elvis is still alive and hiding in a witness protection program, humming Blue Suede
Shoes at home with the windows closed. These kinds of people will believe anything. They
dont let facts get in the way.
RIP POST: Why were so few people able to understand that the
Neocon-driven Bush administration was exploiting 9/11 to ramrod "Global Pax
Americana" through? Playing on nationalism and fear to rally support?
LINDORFF: Jingoism works. If you wave the flag, people salute. Just go in a movie
theater. Ive been in theaters where they play the Star-Spangled Banner. Its
just a tape in a theater for gods sake, and everyone stands up! People in America
still think we have the best living standard in the world (ha!), the best healthcare
system (!), that were the most moral, the smartest. All you have to do is travel
somewhere else, and go outside the hotel on the tour plan, and you discover that lots of
people have it better than we do, that lots of people are smarter than we are, and that
many countries are far more moral. But hey, who travels? And of those who do, how many
speak the language of the country they visit, or even leave their hotels and go out on the
town?
RIP POST: Why do so many people---the majority of the country---still fail to
comprehend this? That the plans to invade Iraq and "pre-emptive strike" policy
were in the works long before 9/11?
LINDORFF: Its the same problem. People dont want to hear about complexity or
subversion or impropriety in government, unless its something simple like a sex
scandal. I think theres a collective desire on the part of the American public
to avoid absorbing facts that conflict with a preconceived image they have of the U.S. as
a Norman Rockwell society, maybe with black people added.
RIP POST: The 9/11 Commission findings, and the incisive analysis by many an observer,
makes it clear enough that intelligence failure, in large measure, brought about 9/11. Yet
experts and government officials for the last twenty years were saying that it was only a
matter of time before a major terrorist attack occurred on U.S. soil. Why was so
little done to shore up security against such an eventuality in that time?
LINDORFF: For the same reason that the government spends more than it collects in taxes,
pollutes the environment, guts educational spending and robs the Social Security Trust
Fund. Nobody gets elected for planning ahead. What the Bush guys realized, which
earlier political leaders since the 40s missed out on, was that there was a real plus in
scaring the shit out of the public, and the terror thing really works. Never mind
that terrorism is just a nuisance, not a threat to the survival of the nation. The Bush
guys are telling us that our way of life is threatened, and so we have to give up our
rights, our democratic freedoms and traditions, we have to go to warpermanent
waror well be destroyed by a handful of guys from the Middle East who want to
kill us all. Its ridiculous.
But prior to this approach, there was nothing to be gained by
spending a lot on anti-terrorism efforts. It wasnt glamorous, it was costly, and
nobody cared.
RIP POST: The PNAC document practically yearns for a
"Pearl-Harbor-like event" to galvanize public support for its policies. The Bush
administration was warned ad nauseum by Richard Clarke and Sandy Berger (and others) that
Bin-Laden and terrorism should be a top priority. Yet the administration all but ignored
the threat of terrorism during its first 9 months---up until 9/11. I believe this was
deliberate. I suspect that Dick Cheney essentially directed the administration to ignore
the problem in order to withstand a terrorist "hit" at home and get the
"Pearl Harbor-like event" needed to implement PNAC tenets. Perhaps he wasn't
expecting anything as devastating as 9/11. What do you think?
LINDORFF: Im not ready to say that the Bush team knew 9/11 was coming and let it
happen because they wanted a Pearl Harbor. Like the theory that
Roosevelt knew the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor, I dont think the
evidence is there. Thats not to say I dont think these guys would do such a
terrible thing. I believe they would if they had a chance. Maybe they did. But
generally speaking, my approach to conspiracy theories is to ignore them if theres
not good evidence to believe them. I dont think we need to. What they did after the
attack was grotesque and cynical enough. They clearly used the attacks to the hilt,
shamelessly, to their own political advantage.
RIP POST: After 9/11 and the ensuing obvious rush by the Bush
administration to invade Iraq, Bill Moyers started the "Now" program on PBS, a
rare journalistic example of credibility, sanity, smart commentary and good investigative
reporting. Moyers didn't have to do this. His heart isn't so hot, and he's well along in
years. I believe he acted out of patriotism and concern for the survival of democracy
here, and I believe he was heroic in so doing. Comments?
LINDORFF: Bill Moyers is one of my heroes. Right up there with Studds Terkel and John
Hess.
RIP POST: You wrote in a recent column that distasteful as it is, leftists must vote
for Kerry. Why? And why is it so distasteful?
LINDORFF: I believe that in modern America third parties are hopeless. We dont have
a labor union base to keep a third party focussed, so they tend to shatter into little
egocentric sects fighting over their own agendas and ideologies. A Third party was
possible back in the 30s when you had a huge blue-collar working class and a major nucleus
of European immigrants with labor union and socialist political traditions. Now we
have none of that. Third parties tend now to be the work of an educated fringe of
anarchistically inc lined young peoplenot a good base for a political movement.
I also believe that we are facing the very real threat of a de-facto one-party state, a
kind of proto-fascist set-up where the republicans control all the levers of
powerthe congress, the executive, the courts, and the state governments, and the
democrats are kept alive on life-support for the porpose of providing the illusion of an
opposition and a democracy. If Im right, then as sorry as the Democratic Party is
today, it is critical for us on the left to help to preserve a vestige of power in one
branch of governmentthe presidencywhile trying to recover ground in the other
areas-state governments and the courts.
Kerry is just another Democratic Leadership Council hack. He stands for nothing but his
own success. He voted for the war, for the Patriot Act, he voted for Scalias
nomination to the Supreme Court, he has backed away from his onetime opposition to the
death penalty. Hes another Bill Clinton without the charisma, such as it was. I
dont trust him. That said, I think he can be pressured to sometimes dothe right
thing, which is an improvement over Bush. I know thats not exactly a ringing
endorsement, but its the best I can do.
RIP POST: Do you have any prediction for the election? Jimmy Carter
notes that the Florida voting situation is "unacceptable." Amusing that a guy
who helps supervise elections in Third World countries can't give a passing grade to
Florida. . .
LINDORFF: It would take a miracle for Kerry to win. If the election is close, the
Republicans will steal it.
RIP POST: Do you think the majority of voters realize how
important this election is? I hear from many who groan the usual cynical cliche that
"it makes no difference who is elected."
LINDORFF: I dont think most people give a damn who wins. I predict voter turnout
wont top 50 percent.
RIP POST: Whom do you most want to read your book, and what do you hope its publication
might accomplish?
LINDORFF: Id like my book to be read by progressives, whom I hope it will rouse from
their worldly cynicism. Id like it to be read by people who have been mesmerized by
Fox TV and CNN, and who need to have a dose of critical thinking. And Id like it to
be read by the decent Republicans (there are a few), who have been closing their eyes to
the craven, power-hungry nature of the crew thats in the White House bearing their
name. Basically, Id like 50,000-plus people to buy the thing...
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